Donnie McClurkin told the Associated Press just this past Monday, October 22nd: "I don't believe that it is the intention of God. Sexuality, everything is a matter of choice."
Thursday, October 25, 2007
From Donnie McClurkin's 2001 book Eternal Victim, Eternal Victor, he writes: "The abnormal use of my sexuality continued until I came to realize that I was broken and that homosexuality was not God's intention... for my masculinity."
McClurkin wrote on a Christian Web site in 2002: "I've been through this and have experienced God's power to change my lifestyle. I am delivered and I know God can deliver others, too."
The New York Times in 2002: ''Love is pulling you one way and lust is pulling you another and your relationship with Jesus is tearing you, tearing you,'' said Mr. McClurkin, who now counsels adolescent boys that homosexuality is a choice they can overcome.
At the 2004 Republican National Convention: "There is a moral aspect that was overwhelmingly a part of Bush's appeal."
On the Christian Broadcasting Network (Pat Robertson's organization) in 2004: "I'm not in the mood to play with those who are trying to kill our children."
In May 2005 McClurkin told Religion & Ethics Newsweekly: "There was a big 20-year gap of sexual ambiguity where after the rape my desires were toward men, and I had to fight those things because I knew that it wasn't what we were taught in church was right. And the older I got, the more that became a problem, because those were the first two sexual relationships that I had. Eight years old and 13 years old. So that's what I was molded into. And I fought that. When I tell you from eight to 28, that was my fight -- in the church. And you were in an environment where there were hidden, you know, vultures I call them."
As the controversy brews around Grammy Award winning gospel singer and mega church Pastor Donnie McClurkin joining Barack Obama's gospel concert tour, many people are questioning how can a so-called ex-gay can be part of the “Obama For Change” camp. Obama said he strongly disagrees with McClurkin's beliefs. According to the Associated Press, Obama was not aware of the anti-gay minister’s views on homosexuality. As a balancing act, he added a gay minister to the gospel tour lineup, but Donnie McClurkin remains.
Donnie McClurkin claims he "became" gay after sexual abuse as a child, but with much struggle he managed to “pray the gay away”. Rhetoric that many people have found challenging to believe, considering the countless rumors erupting about his sexual escapades. Nonetheless, I am convinced one can be anti-gay, against gay marriage, against gay rights and still be gay. Meaning, you can fully hate yourself and that hate manifests in every part of your life. Senator Larry Craig, Ted Haggard and Mark Foley are not necessarily hypocrites; they are suffering from a toxic, and sometimes criminal, level of homophobia.
The story I heard in a face to face interview with someone who claims to be Donnie McClurkin’s ex-lover was one of sadness, sexual deviance and scandal. He detailed in an hour and twenty minutes his relationship with the millionaire pastor, which I have on audio. He demands to remain anonymous being that he is tied to the gospel music industry and explains, “I can be blackballed by him.” For his professional and personal protection he will only go by the name of “Rob”.
This story is not to point out hypocrisies, which is a weak argument. Internalized homophobia might be the appropriate label especially when the fuel is corporations who are making their “leader” a millionaire. This story is to tell “Rob’s” truth and you can chose to believe it or not, but as he said staring straight in my eyes, “I know there’s more.” Insinuating he is not the only one who has had a sexual relationship with the Reverend -- who bragged in 2002 that he now counsels young boys that homosexuality is a choice they can overcome.
As you read, this story is making the rounds in the media outlets, but I wonder—will the black church still expect him? Will they ignore his talent, accomplishments and inspiration he has given across the globe? Will the gospel community reject him because according to “Rob” he lied, or simply because he is gay? Will a stint in gay rehab, or a few public cries to Jesus redeem him? Can you still, after this interview, use an ex-gay status as a marketing ploy?
In this revealing interview "Rob" details his relationship, or as he described, "roller coaster ride", with the “We Fall Down” hit maker from 2001 to 2004, which is ironically during the height of McClurkin's anti-gay rants and calls for conversion. Also, how they met, his status in the gospel industry, their sex life, why he stayed and why they ended. Plus, their last encounter in March 2007.
The full interview can not be made public, some things I had to leave out such as other artists in gospel who are gay, but have not made anti-gay rants. A relationship with an R&B legend who, as “Rob” said, married a “bisexual”, famous pastor. I only wanted to focus on the relationship with McClurkin and no one else. I am presenting a story for people to make up their own minds.
Disclaimer: This is not my opinion but alleged facts brought to my attention. The facts alleged in this article are the sole expressions from the interviewee and his experiences with the subject. ClayCane.net does not have any independent corroboration of the alleged facts as stated in this article.
Tell me how you first met Donnie McClurkin.
I was at a gospel event backstage. We were introduced—I guess it was just you looked across the room, this person looked at you and you just knew there was something. This person had some type of interest because you walk in and they look at you. You look up throughout the evening and you keep seeing this person staring at you. Emails were exchanged and cell phones numbers were exchanged so that was the beginning. But, it was strictly just music, things in common that type of thing—but for some reason I felt there was an attraction. That was that.
What year was that?
Did you instantly know that it was Donnie McClurkin?
I knew that because of his prior success with the song "Stand", Oprah Winfrey used to always talk about it. "Stand" came out late like '90's so he was already starting to rise although he had a major group back in the '80's, which Kelly Price was a part of, different people. But, "Stand" was the one that sort of said, okay, let's take notice. So, I already knew who he was.
This may sound like a dumb question but what made you know he wasn't straight. Was he around other gay people? Was it just blatantly obvious? What made you know that he wasn't heterosexual?
Well, in gospel music everyone knows who messes around and who is straight. I've always known it.
It wasn’t just you that knew -- people in that circle knew that Donnie McClurkin—
Oh yeah! A lot of people know, even some of the heavyweights. Now he's heavyweight, but some of the ones that are well known and highly regarded.
What were your first conversations like?
He'd explain how it is on the road, it's lonely. How sometimes he'd just get in his room and cry. He said, "And you're single?" It came out of nowhere, I said, "Yeah, I am." He said, "Wow, the person that would have you would be lucky." I said, "Well, I guess so, you know, I consider myself a good person." Blah, blah, blah...he said, "What do you think of me?" I said, "I think you're very talented. Handsome, you look good." He said, "You don't sound so sure." I said, "No, you do, you do."
This already doesn’t sound like the ex-gay, gay people are vultures—the Donnie McClurkin we see in the media. Were you aware that he was an "ex-gay" at this point?
I wasn't aware then. "We Fall Down" was really starting to catch everyone's ear. There was talk he was going to start a church out on Long Island.
Was there any talk in your conversations about being gay is wrong; this is an abomination or conversion?
Early on, no—he would relate it to being lonely. Not being able to be who you really want to be, who you are and that was a little later. I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, I'm in gospel, I have fans, I'm about to start this church and the church has a lot of promise. It can be a big thing", which it ended up being. He said, "I have a position to uphold and I have an image, but the thing is I know who I am and I’m going to have to work on some things; I have some things to work on." I said, "Is it that simple? Can you just work on it like that? Cut on a switch."
When was the first time you were intimate?
Like I said we met winter, the first time was in May.
What was that like—the first time you guys were intimate?
It was uncomfortable because...it was uncomfortable because he gets into role playing, which is he's the bottom and he wants you to treat him rough. He wants to talk rough and that's not my demeanor, that's not in me. I can play a role and I did it, but I didn’t feel comfortable because it wasn’t me. I felt stupid actually. Like, what did I just do? It was just strange.
Did you have any foreplay?
It wasn’t that much, it was an embrace, a hug, a kiss and then just immediately something went in another direction. He was like a different person, the tone of his voice. He referred to his asshole as “pussy”. Stuff like that, "You want to fuck this pussy, don't you?" You know that type of thing.
Where did this happen?
This was at a hotel. That was the first experience, but each time I always had to play the role. You get tired of it. He'd often say, "I don't want the lovey dovey stuff." Those were exact words, "I don’t want the lovey dovey stuff, the hugging, the cuddling, I don’t want the lovey dovey stuff—I just want sex." That's how it was and so I sort of knew—this is not going to be anything. Not that I thought it would. I knew this was going to be an occasional thing when time permitted.
But it keeps going, right?
It did, it was off and on, but sometimes when he'd get in his stage of -- I guess when he'd go in “remission” -- when he didn't want to take the calls, or when he didn’t want to get together. I couldn’t deal with that—not that I felt any strong way toward him. I didn’t know what was going on, I just got on the ride and just decided I’d just ride this thing out and see what's going on and what's going to happen. But, the thing is when he'd go on his moments, on this is wrong, I can’t do this, blah, blah, blah. It was because "We Fall Down" was becoming so popular. The church had just started in the summer of 2001 and they were growing. They started with 350 [members] by the next month it was another 100 onto that. Then another 100 so it was growing.
Do you think if "We Fall Down" wasn't a success that your relationship might have been different?
It was the church and the celebrity. He was becoming a celebrity, he was everywhere, he was on TV and his song had crossed over into the mainstream. It would've been just like it was, just a quiet thing between two men that time would permit for the both of them.
There was no shame, anger, or rage after sex?
No, but there was a silence. Laughter like, "That was good!" Not really embarrassment, it was over, but it wasn’t any shame or anything. It’s not that he changed too much like he felt overly guilty or anything. It was done and sometimes in the night he'd say, “I got to get going”, or “don’t you have to work tomorrow?” I took that as a cue, time for me to go.
Did he ever tell you about his relationships with other men?
No, he just told me that he used to be, prior to "Stand", you know, he was active. I know even one time when we were walking somewhere—the Show Palace; he said, “That used to be my hang out.”
Remember Show Palace on 42nd and 8th Avenue?
It's a porn place. You know, booths, glory holes, whatever.
He was into glory holes?
No, he was into the Show Palace and all those things are in the Show Palace. I've actually never been in the Show Palace, but I asked him what was in there and he said, "Just everything you wanted to find. Glory holes, whatever." I asked, "Do you do glory holes?" He said, "No, I wouldn’t stick my six inch, small dick through a glory hole."
He said, "I wouldn’t stick my six inch small dick through a glory hole"? Wow. There's going to be the idea you could be lying. Is there anything specific you can tell me like a birthmark, or a description of a body part?
His penis is six inches and it's medium to small in thickness. No distinctive birth marks. High butt, not shapely, plain old body. Not a worked body—that is the most distinctive thing.
Only you would know?
I would know that it's six inches and small. Not because he told me but because I saw it.
Was he circumcised?
Had you been to his house before?
His house was being designed for him, well, it was being remolded so all of his things had to be in meetings—hotels.
When you say “all of his things” you mean when you and him met up?
Yeah, he got an old house on Long Island so it was being fixed up. He decided to get an old house and get it made in to what he wanted it to be. He was living with a relative, I believe, at the time. There was nothing going to really happen out in Long Island.
So you never went to Long Island?
I did—was it Garden City? There was a hotel there in Garden City that I went to. I caught the Long Island Railroad and waited on the platform for awhile till he came, we went. He was very nervous because that was the first Long Island meeting. That's his home, his territory, black people all know him. Sometimes if he was singing in Atlanta, I'd be in Atlanta. If he was singing in Detroit, I would be there. I would go and he would help me get there.
Yes, I wasn’t going to pay. [Laughs]
Did people in his circle know you were seeing each other?
No because I agreed to play by the rules.
What did he explain the rules to be?
Just discretion, just respect what I’m trying to do, the music, the church. The church was getting so huge that's when he started to change; I noticed a change in his personality. He would be short-tempered, would get smart with me—he was angry. Something was bothering him, very troubled and “Why is this happening to me?”
Why is this happening to me as far as what?
"I've always wanted to be a pastor, I’ve always wanted my music out there, but still I'm not happy. I want to have somebody to love, I want to be in love with somebody but I know what's in the inside of me."
How long were you guys being sexual?
Off and on for three years, 2001 to 2004.
During this time to 2001 to 2004 is really the height of his anti-gay rants. The book came out, he made comments, he told the New York Times in 2002 he’s counseling adolescent boys to convert them from homosexuality. Would you hear about these rants?
Every time I’d read an article in Ebony or Jet, or whatever, I’d just hear it—I’d get upset and we’d always have an argument about it. He said, “I told you.” I said, “It’s crazy. What you’re doing is crazy. You’re writing this stuff, but yet you’re still doing it.” I said, “I have a problem with that. What’s wrong with you?” He said, “I have a problem.”
What do you think he meant by “I have a problem”?
It’s something he just can’t control. He feels that he has to say that to please people. He said, “I don’t want people to believe that I’m still doing it.”
Some of the stuff he said, “I’m not in the mood to play with those who are trying to kill our children.” This is what he said in 2002 on the Christian Broadcasting Network.
Some of the other gospel artists, I won’t name—
If they’re not homophobic I don’t want to know their name.
They’re not. They are gay, they would be pissed, livid—did you hear what “Crazy” said? It would be widespread, did you hear what he said, he’s mentally ill, I love him, he’s a talented man—that was the thing they’d always say. I love him, he’s a talented man, but he’s crazy and he’s confused.
Was he actively trying to stop having sex with men?
Yeah, I believe so because of the tears and hearing him cry. I believe he was really fighting something.
He claims the reason why he was gay is because he was sexually abused.
I know he says that but that doesn’t—he never talked about anything prior to the abuse but he did say…one time, I’m paraphrasing, like it’s something that can lie dormant, you don’t have to act upon it. Even though it’s in you, you don’t have to act upon it. He said, “I’m just hoping that God will just continue to keep me strong.”
You’ve kind of touched on this, but in my experiences people who are sexually repressed; when they are sexual they’re very over the top sexually, freaky almost. Would that be fair to say about him?
It was very involved, rough, sweaty and vocal. I couldn’t do it that’s just not in me.
What’s an example of how raw it would get?
I guess it’s just the talk, “Whose pussy is this? Tell me whose pussy—” and yelling it, you know, stuff like that. It was like…it’s almost like he was being raped.
Was he completely sober and clear-minded during sex?
Yes, but he was addicted to sex.
You felt like he had some sort of sex addiction?
Oh yeah! It was just so different, he became a different person.
How often would you guys have sex?
It wasn’t a lot, like twice a month.
What made the relationship stop?
It was the hot and cold. One day he’ll send you an email or a text message saying meet me here, or can I come there. Then you see this person at an event and they totally ignore, walk past you, be totally cold to you online, on the phone, or won’t take your messages. Not that I was some scorned person or anything, but it was just so extreme. It all related to wean himself off of men. The church had now gotten up to maybe a 1,000.
Do you think being violently homophobic was the key to his success? There are so many gay people in the gospel music industry. Why did he have to be so—
So like he was?
Yeah—so like he is! Even right now…
It seems like every time he was attacked in the media, or word was getting around, it just seemed like it made him even madder. He had attacked gays, the lifestyle, when something was written about him—one lady wrote an article, “The Sins of Donnie McClurkin”, I mean, it was scathing. It’s since gone now, I tried to find it today and Keith Boykin, he’s written some things. Every time somebody would do that he would counterattack. The articles, the hearsay would make him just go crazy and he was not fun to be around. One time we met and it was him sitting in a bed Indian style and me sitting in the hotel chair looking at TV. No sex, no nothing…
Three years is a good amount of time, why did you keep having the relationship?
I wouldn’t even call it a relationship, it was just we did what we did. It wasn’t a relationship, it was just sex and I think maybe I got caught up a little bit in who he was.
You did care about him to a certain extent?
Yeah and I know he cared about me. I get calls, you know, “I need someone to talk to. I'm lonely, I’m so lonely.” I felt sorry and it was sincere.
You don’t think he’s had sex with a man since you in 2004?
Oh, of course I do! But, can I prove that? No, but I’ve heard.
Tell me about the last time you saw him.
It was March 2007; I was at a restaurant in Manhattan. I was at a table with a good friend who started a production company. This very effeminate guy came in, cute—he was sitting there waiting for his guest. I’m talking to my friend and he says somebody is approaching you and they know you. Someone puts his arm around me and I stand up it’s him. We hugged and then he introduced me to the person.
This is the person who was very effeminate?
In your mind, obviously gay?
Yeah, obviously, to anyone! I nodded, I wasn’t fazed—this is 2007. We went back to eat, but he was uncomfortable. He moved all the way in the corner. The person I was with said, “You two were involved?” He didn’t know anything—not anything. He said, “The looks and the man had to move all the way over there.” I never confirmed it.
Did he tell you why he was there with the guy?
Later, we did talk and he said, “Okay that was someone I’m counseling.”
The effeminate guy he was there with was someone he was counseling?
Yeah, I said, “Oh, okay!” He said, “I don’t want people to think things.”
Did it seem like BS?
It seemed like a meeting spot, way in the city, it was reminiscent of some of the things we would do. You know, let’s meet there; let’s meet at the edge of the town.
Why did it finally stop?
We had planned a meeting and he said, “I’m going to stop putting you through this and I’m going to stop putting myself through this.”
This was in ’04 of ?
December 2004—he said, “I have to do the right thing, it’s becoming a problem; I have to be all I need to be to my church, my people. I have to be real to what I’m saying, to what you’re reading.” He said, “It’s like an ex-drug user you’re in recovery in a sense.” He always did look at it like he was in some type of recovery, “As long as I’m not acting upon it, I’m okay. Yes, deep down I probably am gay, but as long as I’m not acting on it.”
So in December of ’04 he told you I really have to stop doing this. Did you accept it—what was your reaction?
Yeah, we said our goodbyes in a sense. He said, “I hope you visit the church and stay in touch.” I said, “Well, I admire you and I hope you are going to do right. I don’t like these articles still and I don’t believe them because look what’s been happening for the last three years.”
Now, he’s obviously going to know this is you.
You don’t think so?
You know the reason why I don’t think so is because I know there are others…I know there are others. I think he’s going to be confused. He’s going to say, either it was this one that one or that one. You know? There were others.
Did you ever meet his family?
Like who in his family?
All his sisters, his brother, his mother, his father.
Do you think they knew about his sexuality?
They knew their child and they know their brother, they know he was struggling, they did.
He wanted to make sure you deleted emails and messages?
He asked me did I save them. I said, you know what, I honestly don’t. I didn’t.
Have you ever heard about Donnie McClurkin having sexual rendezvous with boys under 18?
No, I have never heard that. Have people that I’ve know in gospel implied it? Yes. They’ve said it looks bad because they follow him around like little puppies, just following him around. But, it’s never been proven, no one’s ever said anything. I heard one time some young guy said he was talking real nasty to him in chat.
On an instant message conversation?
Yeah, but no one believed the guy. He told somebody and no one believed him.
Would you say that Donnie’s bisexual or gay?
I think he’s gay! He’s not bisexual. He’s had the little son, but that was just some young girl who was so taken with you, so infatuated with you. She set that up and he wasn’t sure he could get her pregnant because he said hadn’t got out in time. He initially would tell me, “I haven’t hated anyone till her. I hate her.”
His child’s mother?
Yeah because she was very evil and spirited because he was going to get all she could get. He wasn’t a big enough celebrity so it never made it anywhere.
Do you feel sorry for him?
I do, I feel sorry on those days when he’d cry. Saying he’s going through this, he’s going through that—he’s lonely, he’s horny. He won’t know this is me because he’s been down this road before with people, just hearsay. I’ve heard he’s had relationships with guys in Atlanta, guys in New York, guys in LA.
You are not heterosexual and you’re Christian. Do you think you’re going to go to hell for not being heterosexual?
No, I strongly believe that I am who I am. We’re saved by grace, God can save whoever he wants.
Do you think being gay is a sin?
No, I don’t because why are we here? Sin is sin, killing that’s a sin, stealing from somebody, but God saved the criminal—anyone can be saved.
Do you think homosexuality is something people need to be saved from?
No! Not at all and we’ve had debates about that and I said, “I think you’re born this way.” I would tell him that. “I think you had it in you before that rape.”
"Because I was raised in a Christian culture I never considered myself to be a totally free human being." -- James Baldwin
Labels: Gospel, Sexuality
Posted by Clay ::
1:30 PM ::